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Old 11-07-2011, 09:31 AM   #1 (permalink)
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About Counterfeit Golf Clubs

Dear Friends,

Counterfeit golf clubs are a serious problem to the club making industry. As moderators, we delete at least one post a week for someone who joins this forum and tries to advertise counterfeit clubs, often with the help of friends or associates who claim to have purchased from the site in the ad, saying they got good value for their money.

Sorry, no... It's not going to happen here.

Here's the link to a site now enjoined by some major American club manufacturers who are determined to eradicate fake clubs. It's a huge uphill battle. I highly recommend you read the brief amount of information from the site. It will only take a couple minutes of your time, but it will enlighten you like never before.

Fake Counterfeit Golf Clubs - Cleveland Golf Balls, Srixon Golf Equipment, Never Compromise Golf, Taylor Made Golf Bags

To Add to that a note to anyone thinking of spamming

Are you about to post something that includes an ad? Forget it. I'll find it and change your link to something as silly as I can find.

Are you trying to sell counterfeit clubs? Don't bother. And don't think you could pay the administration to advertise. Illegally manufactured clone clubs will not be talked about or advertised. If you got a good deal on a fake club, keep it to yourself because I'll delete your post and consider banning you from the forum.

Take my word for something. I'm retired, I'm bored and I have nothing better to do with my time than make a spammer's life miserable.

It's been agreed between me, some of the other moderators and the administration that we simply aren't going to tolerate anything even remotely suspicious. If we allowed an ad for clubs at questionable prices to stay in a post, it might look like this forum condones the illegal copying of clubs with registered patents.

We aren't going to let this happen.

Have a nice day.

================================================== ===============================

Stretch seemed to like my "bad attitude" and offered a simpler version for your consideration...

He does not like green eggs and ham and does not like to see anyone post spam.
He does not like it here or there, he does not like it anywhere.
Not in shots of clubs or played today, not in any thread you say.
Not with your morning cup of joe, not before you gotta go.
Not in sticky's or threads, not right before you go to bed.
Not in a sig or the body, this applies to everybody.
Not in PM's or replies, if you have to ask why oh my.
We do not like to see your spam, it will end up in the trash can!
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Last edited by Surtees : 11-07-2011 at 07:14 PM. Reason: Just adding extra info Dennis
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Old 11-26-2011, 12:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Question Knock off clubs

I can understand club makers problem with knock off clubs, but I have another concern. It seems that except for PING all clubs are now made in China, with components being made in Viet Nam and other places, with assembly done in Mexico and other countries. They say that labor and government regulations prevent them from producing products here in the US. Consequently, they go where labor is cheap, regulations are non-existent and quality control is sketchy. All this and club prices are still the same or more than PING and all the jobs are NOT HERE. I have no sympathy for the club makers, they have outsourced the making of clubs to low cost manufacturers, like others have, and forgotten to pass on that savings to their customers. You call them American club manufactures, but that is in name only. How is this justified ?

Last edited by TKroll : 11-26-2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: adding content
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Old 11-26-2011, 02:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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You are playing a game of semantics. You are correct that most of the clubheads are made overseas, but the companies whose names are on those clubs are American companies... Titleist, Cobra, Callaway, Taylormade...

Part of the counterfeit problem that has been stopped to a larger extent than real counterfeits is the side where a worker in the factory that makes the real clubheads steals one head a day until he has enough for a set. Then he gets someone to put shafts and grips in them and sells them for as much as his annual salary. Metal detectors and such have been installed at many of the legitimate factories to insure their workers aren't walking off with clubheads every day.
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Old 11-26-2011, 03:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think the semantics are on both sides of our conversation and you bring up an interesting point. These workers can take a few clubs and earn a years salary, yet they are paid a few cents or dollars to produce the clubs. Is this Capitalism or exploitation?
So, as I mentioned, I have no sympathy for the "American" club makers. They would do some good for themselves and the country if they brought their operations back home and truly became American manufacturing companies.
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Old 11-26-2011, 03:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Since I play Pings, I guess I look at things somewhat differently, but while my G15 irons are completely American made, my understanding is, the wood heads and hybrid heads are made overseas.

Firstly, it's capitalism that makes the club companies search for profit by reducing their costs. The fact that it's become America's problem, (shipping jobs overseas), has been by government trade agreements as much as by virtue of individual companies looking for market share. The blame is probably equal.

Secondly, the exploitation is on the part of the foreign manufacturer. Their workers would be paid no better whether they were making golf equipment or tractor parts. The fact our American manufacturers took advantage of it... well go back to the first paragraph I guess. They justify it by profit motive to their shareholders.

And I agree. It would be nice to see the American manufacturers bring those jobs home. Contrary to your feelings though, I have sympathy for the American factories, probably because I was an economist by education.

I feel like some American worker would be happy to have the job making those heads. What I'm not sure of is whether the cost of the clubs would rise to the point that only the rich could afford them. The effort to bring golf to the masses might mean foreign manufactured clubheads are the only way to keep things cost effective. To some extent, without the distribution network being reduced, it's a bit of a Catch 22.
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:23 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKroll View Post
I think the semantics are on both sides of our conversation and you bring up an interesting point. These workers can take a few clubs and earn a years salary, yet they are paid a few cents or dollars to produce the clubs. Is this Capitalism or exploitation?
So, as I mentioned, I have no sympathy for the "American" club makers. They would do some good for themselves and the country if they brought their operations back home and truly became American manufacturing companies.
And then you won't be able to afford to buy them anyway. People like you who complain about outsourcing seem to forget that those products made overseas then have import duty and excise taxes added to the increased shipping costs to bring the profit margin down to a reasonable level. Don't you really think that if TaylorMade could undercut Ping by $200 for an equivalent set of irons they would??? If they could reduce their profit per set while selling two or three times as many sets, they'd jump at it. And the others would have to reduce prices or go out of business. Would you prefer it if TM or Callaway ran Ping into bankruptcy?

Exploitation? Those clubmaking contracts provide jobs for people at a pay rate commensurate with other such jobs in those countries. I don't really care if they are American, Indonesian, or Chinese - they are still people who need to work to live and put food on the table for their families. Most of those foundries and machine shops make clubheads on a contract basis, meaning that they do other things too. It's not like the US has built factories overseas, they've just made use of resources which were already available. If American workers and unions hadn't priced themselves out of the market, those jobs might still be here, but like so many service jobs are these days, they'd be served by illegal immigrants because Americans would be too special to do such work for such a poor pay scale.

And by the way, I was a union machinist for 33 years, so I have some expertise in that area. When the auto workers were trying to put their companies out of business screwing nuts and bolts together for $17 an hour, machinists like myself who were skilled tradesmen were making $10 or less. Life isn't fair, and pricing and wages are set by the principles of supply and demand. Every time the auto workers went on strike, the public outcry got them what they wanted because Americans couldn't live without a new car every other year. Of course, they had to buy cars that often because the auto makers had to cut corners and quality to keep them affordable. Then when Japan offered a better product for a lower price, the government stepped in and put a ridiculous excise tax on the imports to protect those overpaid auto workers. Eventually the house of cards that they built on a quagmire of corruption and graft collapsed and then the government gives them our tax dollars as a bailout to save those jobs. Not because of outsourcing, but because they couldn't see two feet past their rose colored glasses.

Faced with a similar situation, many US manufacturers have since moved some or all of their heavy manufacturing overseas, not for increased profits, but for survival. I was fortunate enough to work for a company which actually made a product which we sold around the world. It was such high precision work that it was difficult to find an Asian company which could even make spare parts for us to stock our Far East parts distributors. We tried to do so to cut shipping costs, but Chinese machine shops and machinists simply weren't up to the task. Golf clubs mostly just require casting or forge stamping out the heads, then some minor milling on the faces and cleaning up and polishing. Simple tasks which can be done just about any place where metal working facilities are available. Much of the club assembly is still done here.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Your rant just shows a naive thought process, that unfortunately is prevalent in one of the political parties (two if you count the Tea Party as legitimate). Taking jobs from workers here in America and outsourcing for nothing other than profit should be considered a act contrary to what America is about. Isn't it wonderful that these companies feed people of other countries while US citizens go hungry and look for work, and that they pay subsistence wages for work, well what more can we ask of them.

If PING can be competitive, pay decent wages, provide good working conditions, make a quality product and also make a profit, why can't Taylor Made, Callaway and the others do so with work here in the US?

And don't use the old/tired, blame it on the Unions story. The Unions have gone through major changes in past years, they have worked with employers and scaled back on bargaining issues. Before Unions, workers were little more than interchangeable parts for employers, you should know that.

If employers outsource all of their work to other countries, what are American workers to do? Not everyone can own/run a business, not everyone is destine for higher education, many workers just want to work hard and be paid a living wage...what do these workers do ?
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
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TKroll - I started this thread to reflect the forum management's attitude that ads for counterfeit clubs wouldn't be tolerated and to give some definition to what they are.

When someone takes a thread to a political direction and starts approaching name calling, it's not going to be tolerated, at least not by this mod.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:36 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I can agree with that.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I can agree with that.
Thanks - Something told me you were a good guy!

Maybe I missed it, but have you written anything in the introductions area? Tell us a bit about yourself...
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