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BrianMcG · 04-18-2007, 08:34 AM

JPStuff,

Well said.

Lead Tape · 04-18-2007, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jump15vc

drivers have a loft tolerance of .5* so theoretically they could both be 10's but its pretty unlikely.

also why are you coming at 300 like that anyway. i assume its probably a similar shaft with the same grips and clubheads today are pretty standard. low spin numbers would explain a more boring trajectory that isn't affected much by the loft of the club.

Have you EVER hit two identical clubs side by side made by the same manufacturer in loft, shaft, grip, everything and find trajectory, solidity, and distance differences that were unexplainable?

When a PGA pro cracks the face on his driver, is it an automatic that the company sends him ONE driver and it's an exact duplicate of the broken one and plays identically because the specs are all the same?
NOT HARDLY! Tom Watson cracked his face last year and had a hell of a time finding something that he was satisfied with and they were ALL identical in specs. I think I remember reading where he went through about 26 drivers to get an identical match in the performance of his broken one.

I'm not coming at 300 in any way, just trying to help him get a better understanding of certain intricate factors. What comes across in the written word of forums isn't exactly like it would be interpreted if being said in person. Fact is, 300 is probably my favorite poster on this entire forum and I think he did a super job of reviewing all the drivers.
I too hit every one of the drivers he tested (and even a few more) at the demo day of the PGA Show in Orlando on a 360 degree outdoor driving range with EVERY major and minor club company set up.

I was in 100% agreement with him on his assessment and results for the drivers that he reviewed. It was kind of uncanny because there are normally 1 or 2 drivers that two different players would disagree about. I found NONE. I think I would have ripped a couple of drivers that he didn't give glowing reviews to even worse...and I may have given a slight bit more praise to a few that he gave the "wow" factor, but other than that, we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.

Lead Tape · 04-18-2007, 09:51 AM

There are a number of misconceptions and misunderstandings about a variety of factors regarding club or shaft information, some are very important in the overall scheme of things and some are far less important.

Here's a "for instance". Let's take the KICK POINT of a shaft, which you hear mentioned often and seems to be the primary buzzword indicator of how good that shaft will play for a lot of guys and what goes into their buying decisions.

You have a LOW kickpoint...a MID kickpoint...and a HIGH kickpoint. How about giving your guess on WHERE those kickpoints are actually located on the shaft? And in your opinion, how would you rank it in importance to other factors of a shaft?

JPsuff · 04-18-2007, 01:02 PM

.

Kick point has little to do with overall performance or ball flight. I've pointed this out before on this and other forums and it has been met with more than a fair amount of skepticism.

First of all, the so-called "kick points" on a typical golf shaft generally exist within the space of about one inch on the shaft. Secondly, kick point has more to do with comfort than performance. A shaft with a high kick point will feel a bit stiffer than one with a low to mid kick point. It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.

-JP

**DennisM** · 04-18-2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPsuff

.It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.-JP

I only know what I've heard, so take it with a grain of salt, but I wonder if it's a bit more dramatic than that.

Yes, the so called kick point range is spread over about 1"-2" on the shaft, no argument there. You can actually see it and measure it on charts made for the purpose. The shaft gets locked into a clamp and the tip gets deflected to bow the shaft. On the wall behind it is a chart made to look like graph paper and seeing at what point the bend starts and where the tip appears to retain some stiffness results in a measureable way of examining shaft flex and the deflection point, or kick point. Ralph Maltby's book on club building and repair has some pictures... noticed them some time back...

What I've heard though is that the effect of the kick point is magnified by the flex of the shaft, or maybe I should say magnified by less stiffness to the design of the shaft. In other words, various kick points on a stiff shaft might not exhibit trajectories with much difference, just like you said. On the other hand, on a regular flex shaft or a senior flex shaft, the range of trajectories might be wider and more to the benefit of the person for whom a regular or senior shaft is better fitted. YMMV...

As usual though, it's one of those peculiar mixtures of science and art that not even all the students at Hoggwarts could figure out!

BrianMcG · 04-18-2007, 02:37 PM

This conversation is starting to make my head hurt. If you guys start throwing out trigonometry or physics equations I'm outa here. The weather is just to nice.

FORE!!!

Or is that two?

300Yards · 04-18-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianMcG

You don't seem to understand the concept of average. Why would you think they would hold back on a 600 yd hole if there is no trouble? Hint, they don't. It is then you would see swing speed easily 130-150.

The next hole may have some fairway bunkers and O.B. down one side, they still may hit a driver, but they are not going to try to crank it out there 350yds. That would just be dumb. There is a reason these guys shoot such low scores and its not because they always try to hit it 350yds every hole.

Did you even read my previous post? Your telling a +1.6 handicapper, that he doesn't understand averages?? Your saying it is dumb to smack a ball 350 down a fairway that is 600 yards long?? Let me tell you something..If you can control that distance, and control your fade and draw well, then there is no reason to hold back, and that is why I reach a lot of Par 5 greens, under 550 yards, in two shots. I understand the concepts of averages, and I know mine well. You are pretty much mirroring that of what has already been said...I'm really tired of responding to the same thing..not to be rude or anything..

300Yards · 04-18-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lead Tape

Have you EVER hit two identical clubs side by side made by the same manufacturer in loft, shaft, grip, everything and find trajectory, solidity, and distance differences that were unexplainable?

When a PGA pro cracks the face on his driver, is it an automatic that the company sends him ONE driver and it's an exact duplicate of the broken one and plays identically because the specs are all the same?
NOT HARDLY! Tom Watson cracked his face last year and had a hell of a time finding something that he was satisfied with and they were ALL identical in specs. I think I remember reading where he went through about 26 drivers to get an identical match in the performance of his broken one.

I'm not coming at 300 in any way, just trying to help him get a better understanding of certain intricate factors. What comes across in the written word of forums isn't exactly like it would be interpreted if being said in person. Fact is, 300 is probably my favorite poster on this entire forum and I think he did a super job of reviewing all the drivers.
I too hit every one of the drivers he tested (and even a few more) at the demo day of the PGA Show in Orlando on a 360 degree outdoor driving range with EVERY major and minor club company set up.

I was in 100% agreement with him on his assessment and results for the drivers that he reviewed. It was kind of uncanny because there are normally 1 or 2 drivers that two different players would disagree about. I found NONE. I think I would have ripped a couple of drivers that he didn't give glowing reviews to even worse...and I may have given a slight bit more praise to a few that he gave the "wow" factor, but other than that, we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.

Thanks for that..how very friendly of you. I could have ripped more on the ones I gave a low score to, but I feel that with maybe a bit of dialing in, and possibly a shaft change or two, those clubs may be better, plus I didn't hit on the course..so IMO, my opinion is just a reference. But I'm glad we agree, I enjoy reading your posts as well, and I hope we continue seeing eye to eye.

Quote:

Kick point has little to do with overall performance or ball flight. I've pointed this out before on this and other forums and it has been met with more than a fair amount of skepticism.

First of all, the so-called "kick points" on a typical golf shaft generally exist within the space of about one inch on the shaft. Secondly, kick point has more to do with comfort than performance. A shaft with a high kick point will feel a bit stiffer than one with a low to mid kick point. It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.

Jp, I am 100% agreement with you there..I myself can say that I really can't see or feel a noticeable difference in shaft flex. I pretty much hit them on the same trajectory..My shots go anywhere from 13*, to about 15*, depending on what driver I use, and really loft for me doesn't make that big of a difference, nor does flex. I like the feeling of a Midkick, and thats the one I use, and swear by. I do notice that I am able to better control the height with the Midkck better, but that is just preference for me.

Doby45 · 04-18-2007, 03:31 PM

Quote: