[blue3715]

We had a nice little controversy about a match play (match) at my club. It's all pretty unsportsmanlike, but it was so difficult to figure out our pro had to email the USGA for a ruling. No it didn't involve me. I lost my match.

Players A and B start their match. After the 2nd hole (3rd tee) player A tells player B he has 15 clubs (his wife's 3-wood somehow got put in his bag). According to player A, Player B said "I'm not going to call you on it". The match was all even at that point.

After the 17th hole, player A wins 2 up. Players B says, "But wait, you have 15 clubs, we should be even" (From rule 4-3(?) in a match play the most you can lose is 2 holes if you discover a player with too many clubs).

They go to the pro who asks player B if he waived the penatly on #2. Player B denies saying anything on hole #2!!! He says he didn't know it until 17!

(No, they did not shake, nor play #18).

So according to player A, the other player waived the penalty. Acording to player B he did not know about it until the 18th.

But the question is, how could player B have just amazingly discovered this 15th club after the 17th hole?! He must have known prior to that.

In my opinion rule 1-3 should be put in effect.. Both players may NOT under any circumstance agree to waive a penalty. If they do so (as they did) they are BOTH disqualified. If the USGA believes player B, then they may just disqualify player A for not penalizing himself (on the score card). They could take some pity and assume player A properly discarded the 15th club, but since he did not note it on the scorecard, he gave false information to Player B (again a disqualification).

Unfortunately since player B denies knowing, and there is no proof otherwise, it's going to cost player A the win. If he's REALLY lucky the USGA will rule 4-3 and send them to 18, all square.

This is why you need a witness (caddy) and to mark the scorecard. Golf is about integrity and to not penalize yourself is just bad golf.

 

[92hatchattack]

Totaly off topic, and sorry for thread jacking, but there is a limit to how many clubs you may carry in your bag??? Does this include your putter??

 

[373]

Hi 92hatchback... You are allowed a total of 14 clubs INCLUDING your putter.

Actually, I'm not sure your opponent can waive a penelty you call on yourself, can he? If the player with the 15th club called the penelty on himself, I don't think Player B has anything to do with the situation. It's between Player A and the rule book if Player A is the one making mention of it.

Player B's honesty might certainly come into question for bringing it up on the 17th hole though... unfortunately not covered by the rules.

 

[92hatchattack]

^^^ Thanks! Learning something new everyday!

 

[blue3715]

Hi 92hatchback... You are allowed a total of 14 clubs INCLUDING your putter.

Actually, I'm not sure your opponent can waive a penalty you call on yourself, can he? If the player with the 15th club called the penelty on himself, I don't think Player B has anything to do with the situation. It's between Player A and the rule book if Player A is the one making mention of it.

Player B's honesty might certainly come into question for bringing it up on the 17th hole though... unfortunately not covered by the rules.

No, you cannot agree to waive a penalty, but if you don't say anything until after the next player has teed off (on the next hole) it's too late to call or waive the penalty. Assuming you were aware of the penalty, but didn't bring it up, it's too late.

As for the responsibility to pursue or agree to a penalty... I believe if a person verbalizes that he is aware of a penalty the other player made, he has by default called the person on it. If he kept it to himself, it's between him and god as to if he really did know it or not.

I agree the person A with 15 clubs MUST call himself on it, but by verbally agreeing to allow player A to not penalize himself, player B has broken the rules as well.

Player B should have said to player A, "you must call yourself on the penalty", but since he verbally agreed not to call the penalty he was also at fault (rule 4-3). Of course he manitains he didn't say anything (which is bad for the game).

 

[fitz-uk]

DQ them both.

Specific rules aside, ungentlemanly conduct is a big no-no for me.

 

[373]

Just to throw a little fuel on the fire.... :cheeky4:

Upon finding an extra club in your bag, are you required to remove it? Since the penelty is based on a maximum of 2 holes lost in match play, what's the difference if he carried it for 18 holes? If it was noticed on the 18th, the penelty would be the same.

I wonder what would happen if a player used the club identified as the 15th during the round? How would an opponent ascertain that some other club had gone unused, thus the player had kept to the actual usage of no more than 14 clubs.

Damn... I should go start a fight somewhere... I'm good at all the questions and none of the answers.

 

[white_tiger_137]

It doesn't matter how many clubs you USE. All that is taken into consideration is the number of clubs you CARRY.

 

[blue3715]

Just to throw a little fuel on the fire.... :cheeky4:

Upon finding an extra club in your bag, are you required to remove it? Since the penelty is based on a maximum of 2 holes lost in match play, what's the difference if he carried it for 18 holes? If it was noticed on the 18th, the penelty would be the same.

I wonder what would happen if a player used the club identified as the 15th during the round? How would an opponent ascertain that some other club had gone unused, thus the player had kept to the actual usage of no more than 14 clubs.

Damn... I should go start a fight somewhere... I'm good at all the questions and none of the answers.

In general you would remove it. You could both agree the club is "dead" and still carry it in your bag. It doesn't matter where you discover it, it's still a 2 hole penalty.

If you used the 15th club that you previously declared dead, you should/would be in effect breaking the rule again.. as if you removed the club from your bag and then put it back in! You would be penalized ANOTHER 2 holes.